What Does Acceptance Truly Mean in Living with a Chronic Condition With Cheryl Crow

Cheryl Crow: 0:00

Being a good problem solver and being stubborn and optimistic and saying I'm going to fix this, I'm going to get this figured out those are traits that are really helpful for solvable problems. But your health is not always a solvable problem. Right, you and that's, I think. With autoimmune or chronic illnesses like what you and I are dealing with, it's very tricky to the $100,000 question is okay. How do you differentiate what parts of my condition are solvable and what you're going to be perpetual?

Nikita Williams: 0:31

Welcome to crafted to thrive the globally ranked podcast for entrepreneurs living with chronic illness. I'm your host, nikita Williams, and after being diagnosed with multiple chronic illnesses myself, I figured out the surprisingly simple missing links to growing a profitable business without compromising my health. Since then, I've helped dozens of women just like you learn how to do the same. If you're ready to own your story and create a thriving business that aligns with your health and wellbeing, you're in the right place. Together, we're shifting the narrative of what's possible for entrepreneurs with chronic illness. This is crafted to thrive. I'm so excited to have Cheryl Crowe on the show. We are going to be talking about all things chronic illness, life, business and all the things but please tell us where you are, what you do, where you're from and welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I am from Seattle.

Cheryl Crow: 1:43

I'm a. I am from Seattle, washington, the West Coast of the USA, and, yeah, I am trained as a occupational therapist. I got my master's in occupational therapy. If you don't know what that is, I like to say it's like if a psychologist and a physical therapist had a baby, because we are trained in both the mental health aspects of daily life functioning and the physical aspects, and so our whole goal is improving your ability to function in your everyday life, during your activities, a daily living, whether, that's, you know, in the case of chronic pain, you know being able to take care of yourself, make your food, be able to. You know the simple, minute, daily activities, and also the larger ones, like being able to maintain your emotional health and stuff like that. But short story long, I also yeah, I've had rivetorothritis since I was 21 years old, so half of my life. I just turned 42. And I run a patient education and support organization called Arthritis Life, and that's me.

Nikita Williams: 2:50

I am so excited that you shared that. I didn't realize it was that you did occupational therapy. I for some reason I thought it was. I thought you were doing what is the other one are a physical therapy or yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought it was physical therapy. I didn't realize this occupational therapy which I do think is like such a huge it's a great description to talk about it like between the like, the psychology and the physical, the physicalness of dealing with those things. It's such a huge thing that I've learned just living with chronic illness to be a powerful tool to see how those two worlds collide. I don't know why there's not more Like. I feel like that is the thing that should be I soak.

Cheryl Crow: 3:35

Yeah, I mean you're preaching to the choir, but yeah, if I could rename it. I think the name is confusing for people and because of that they just kind of lump it into physical therapy, but they think it's the same as physical therapy or like a junior physical therapist, but I would rename it life skills therapist, because life skills kind of to me at least encompasses like there are life skills that are in the emotional and cognitive domain right of being able to sustain focus and attention and be able to maintain your emotional regulation. And then there's life skills related to, like physical tasks, right, like being able to, if you have like a, let's say, a severe deformity from rheumatoid arthritis, can you still put your hair up in a ponytail or can you still do the things you want and need to do in your life. And so we're really like I like to think of us as like life skills detectives and we'll look at what is it like, if I'm seeing a client one on one as occupational therapist, that one of the first questions I ask is like you walk me through a day in your life, what's going well, what's not going well, and then we try to analyze what are the root causes like and then are they remediable or are they going to be able to be remedied? Let's say you can't cook very easily and it's, we determine that it's because of weakness. Ok, well, you can gain strength to a certain degree. That's remediation. But there's also cases where you can't, where you say you know what? This, this thumb isn't going to move anymore than it can move right now. We're not going to regain that range of motion. So can we adapt and adjust? Can we use a gadget or a life hack strategy? So that's, and then again, is it, am I, you know, falling apart in my ability to take care of myself on a daily basis because of the more emotional domain, like, do I need coping skills and stuff? So yeah, I think it's a great. I mean, the problem with the field is it's, it's amazing. But it's also like jack of all trades, master of none, like if you're like, can you really be? I think the devil's advocate would be. Like, can you really be an expert in both the mental health and the physical? But I think we do a pretty good job. So again, totally unbiased opinion here.

Nikita Williams: 5:34

Yeah at all. I think I think to your point. I get that whole thought about Jack, you know, like that being both worlds, but I think if you are specific and specifically like in your work, especially in your, in your, in your business as well as in your life, like R A is a very specific lane to kind of own and to know and like there's lots of commonalities and crossovers that I'm sure that you have seen for yourself and for your clients and like patients and things like that. So, yeah, I'm here, I'm thinking about this and I'm thinking, man, that should be like a thing, yeah and they are, and, I think, for better or for worse a lot of times.

Cheryl Crow: 6:17

If you are, you know, having a hard time taking care of yourself or performing your daily activities, that's the kind of the magic word to ask your doctor, whether it's your primary care, your specialist. If you say I'm having a, I'm having problems functioning in my daily life, taking care of myself, then I think it would be helpful for me to meet with an occupational therapist. Would you be able to refer me those? That's, that's something you can ask your doctor for better, for worse. They don't always think about it. I even asked my doctor why aren't more of a metallurgist referring to occupational therapy? She was oh well, nowadays, with the treatments being so much better, so many of our patients are doing better that they're not struggling as much. And I was like but I my experience with running the support groups I do and running the educational programs I've run, is that a lot of patients don't even know to tell their doctor the things that they're struggling with, because they almost seem too small. Like, literally, in occupational therapy, a goal can I'm not kidding Like this is literally in our training manuals and stuff. It can be help turn a page in a in a children's storybook to read to my grandchild Like that is a goal, that like insurance actually depending, because of course you can never for sure.

Nikita Williams: 7:25

Yeah, insurance might reimburse for that.

Cheryl Crow: 7:27

And yeah, yeah, they do tend to like to reimburse more for like the things that are like directly related, like safety and stuff like that. But it's yeah, it's a shame that doctors don't know is a. They don't even know Like they might. They gave you this little sheet at the beginning, at least for me, that it's like can you turn the faucet? Can you dress yourself? Those are really really really basic activities and nowadays, you know, with the medicines being a lot better for rheumatoid arthritis Sorry if I'm rambling, but they you're not always having a difficulty with them. Those really basic tasks, but you might have difficulty with them. More complex tasks like taking care of children, taking care of pets, getting working, being able to work full time, yeah, so stuff like that you can help, no.

Nikita Williams: 8:07

I don't think it's rambling at all. I think there's a lack of education and a lot of sense of the word when it comes to who. Who do you advocate to see, right? Yeah, because that's such a challenge, because doctors aren't necessarily forthcoming who you should be asking for, and so you sharing that like this is what it could look like and what type of help you might be looking for. Here's what it's called. I know you know Lauren Freeman, who is the podcast host of Uninvisible Pod, which you guys know have had her on the show and all that kind of stuff she has. I don't know if she still has this on her website, but she has like a PDF document that talks about who do you see for what? Like, what's the name of all of these different specialists, and she describes, like, what kind of things you might want to see them for in the context of what you're talking about. Like, yeah, I can't turn the page of a book to read to my friends. You know things like that as well as the bigger things, right, and so I do think the more we can educate our audiences in general around who you should be asking for, is more power to us all. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, yeah. So tell me a little bit about where you came upon this journey. So I know you shared a little bit about what you do and your passion, but did you like grow up saying like I want to be an occupational therapist, like how did?

Cheryl Crow: 9:33

that happen. Yeah well, what's interesting? I grew up knowing I wanted to be in a helping field and I wanted to be. At that point when I was a child, I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a special education teacher, which is the phrase that was called back then. I think there's people advocating for that phrase to be changed because it can be a little paternalizing or I don't know if that's the right word but to say special needs, but working with children with developmental disabilities. I grew up alongside a cousin my same age who had autism. Back then children with autism weren't integrated into the general ed classroom so they were just kind of taken off to this mysterious room, like what is he doing there? You know, it was just fascinated by it. So I worked a lot and volunteered a lot in special education and then I worked in a very anyway, long story short. I worked in a private school for severely children with severe behaviors, like meaning, like kind of violent towards people and it's a really tough setting and that honestly, I thought to myself at that time as like a 21 year old or 22 year old. I was like I don't know if I'm actually cut out for this and I also had just got my enrollment toward a Thrius diagnosis and I'm like I can't even physically like make sure I'm safe in this job. So I got a little. I was like what if I? Anyway, I ended up working in nonprofits for a little while. But I came back full circle to occupational therapy because a good friend of mine unfortunately had gotten in a car accident and he had a head injury. He was a friend of mine from swing dancing and the occupational therapist taught. It was like this literally sounds like a metaphor, but it's true the physical therapist taught him to walk again and the occupational therapist taught him to dance again, cause it's all about what is a meaningful activity to you and your life. And I was like, oh, occupational therapy. And I remembered back when I worked in the school for children with disabilities. Some of the kids would say like I want to go to OT, I want to go to OT. And there was this one that was like OT Sarah, ot Sarah. He had a Tourette, he had Tourette's and one of his tics it was OT Sarah. And I was like what is this OT Sarah? I remember going to check out the OT room, thinking this is cool, you can work one on one so it's not as intimidating as the whole classroom. And so, okay, sorry, this is the long version. So I went to occupational therapy school and so the funny thing, the reason I'm saying these reasons I went, is it was for the physical disabilities that were like severe, like cognitive and developmental disabilities, like my friend who had. He had sorry, he had a brain injury, if I didn't say that earlier. So his car accident, he was hit by a car while on his bike and he had a brain injury. So I had a lot of memory problems, cognitive problems and he grew a lot. I saw his rehabilitation. It was amazing. And then I went back and volunteered with the children within the special education program and I was like this is a cool field, I'm going to go into this. Okay, and everyone's like, oh, did you become an occupational therapist and help people with arthritis? Because you knew that that's what cause you had arthritis? Actually, no, my entire sorry, this is a little soapbox. You can tell me, get on my soapbox. No, it's fine, go ahead, girl, just like we were just talking about. I had never been referred to occupational therapy as an arthritis patient and I didn't even know that occupational therapists could do so much to help people with arthritis. Until school, and actually during my schooling program, when I learned about strategies for fatigue, strategies for pain reduction, I was like why did I not know this stuff already? Right, so that planted the seed that became my business arthritis life in 2019,. But I ended up because I had my blinders on of like, okay, I went to school to help, I want to work in pediatrics, I want to work in special ed. I ended up working in special ed for a while and then, on the side, I started my talk show, my YouTube talk show, about arthritis life in 2019. And then the pandemic I pivoted to making it an actual business.

Nikita Williams: 13:12

That is so interesting, oh my goodness.

Cheryl Crow: 13:15

I know sorry I have so many directions.

Nikita Williams: 13:17

No, no, no. I was just like thinking like how it's so interesting that the reason why you're doing what you're doing has it was like kind of like man, nobody told me that again, nobody told me that this is something I should have been doing or it was even something I should have access to or I've been even referred to. I feel like that happened so much with so many of us. I remember when someone told me about a Eurogynacologist and I was like what is that? And they're like it's a your, your urologist that's specialized in the girly parts, and I was like why didn't anybody tell me this? Like that exists and it just makes me think, yeah, like it was just like, wow, that makes a lot more sense, right. So to your point, like went into that place of like supporting people and was like why didn't I have this? So it's so interesting how our paths kind of lead us in different ways to different places. But I want to kind of go back to like you were saying you were diagnosed at the age of 21 with RA. What led to that diagnosis? Like how did? Did you kind of see this happening before then? Or like just tell us a little bit more about that journey.

Cheryl Crow: 14:31

Yeah, and I'll preface this by saying I have a 45 minute YouTube video on just my diagnosis story slash saga, only to say that it is a saga like many of us, and I want to acknowledge first like I had basically every privilege you could have other than being a white male like I'm a white female but also came from a family, a super supportive family, that had their financial resources to really try to get me my diagnosis. They knew I was sick and I still. It took a long time and I'm still like emotional about that because it was like basic experience, like medical gaslighting. So the story is that I was a really athletic, really healthy kid, went to college, was the captain of the college soccer team, like really really strong, really healthy, everything going great. And then, all of a sudden, my sophomore year of college, I was like started feeling like I was wasting away, like I couldn't. My appetite went away, I started losing muscle mass and I started losing weight, unintentionally and not to you know. I hope it's obvious that I that I was not trying to lose weight, I was trying to maintain weight, to be an athlete and it was so bizarre just came out of nowhere and I had this sprained finger I'm making quote marks for those listening. So to me, as somebody who's used to like pushing through a certain degree of pain as an athlete, like it was not a big deal my pain. I'm not saying this to minimize anyone else's pain from rheumatoid arthritis, but literally like the pain, to me it didn't register as like a big thing to mention to doctors. The bigger problem was the digestion issues and the losing weight. I barely even mentioned it to them that I had this finger pain, but it turns out that was the first sign of rheumatoid arthritis specifically To interestingly just a teaching moment for anyone else who's either undiagnosed or know someone with rheumatoid arthritis that uncontrolled inflammation from rheumatoid arthritis directly causes muscle wasting and it's a phenomenon called rheumatoid caecia. Again, something I didn't learn about until I went to in a healthcare field. I never even knew that that actually was what happened to me. But anyway I went to gastroenterologists. Everyone kept saying you're not sick, you're just anxious. Or they accused me of having so trigger warning for eating disorders. But they told my parents they thought I was faking and hiding an eating disorder, that I was doing this to myself. And first of all, if I had an eating disorder. I would definitely, I would deserve the most like compassionate care, right. But it felt to me like how do you prove to someone you don't have an eating disorder? I felt like in a really, really difficult position. All I could say was, like I want to eat. I want to feel like how I felt a year ago, like none of this makes any sense, like I kind of kept thinking I must have like stomach cancer or some sort of health problem. But of course, if you're, if all they're quote unquote tests are normal, which they run, whatever blood tests that they did, and then you're saying you feel really sick and like you might have cancer or something else, they're like well, then the next step for them logically is you're just anxious, you're just a hypochondriac and you're losing weight because you're stressed. So I'm like yeah, I'm a little stressed, it's a little stressful. You're not listening to me.

Nikita Williams: 17:42

You're adding to it, by the way.

Cheryl Crow: 17:45

Yeah, the way I like to describe it is it was like I was, my body was a house, the house was on fire. I called the fireman and they're like there's no fire. Like, who do you call? Like. So my parents again putting the privilege in here, I want to acknowledge that they had the financial privilege to say we're going to hire a concierge doctor, which back in 2003 was a really new concept. Concierge medicine is a little bit more common now, but concierge at that point meant it's someone that's available 24 seven. Like. It's not like I was a celebrity with, like a private doctor, like they had other people, but they did pay out of pocket for this. And even her, the concierge doctor, first said I think you're hypervigilant about your health. You need to stop stressing out so much. And then I got diagnosed really quickly in a row with the gastroparesis, which is basically paralyzed GI tract, which has explained my slow, my slow gastric emptying and everything. But it still didn't explain. There was not a lot to do about it. And then and then I got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. So I had also started because I started having panic attacks, so to mention the mental health. Again, the chicken or the egg to me is I didn't really have any. Not to sound like defensive, but I didn't have any preexisting, real, like consistent mental health issues. I would say that I had signs of anxiety off and on from a young age, like being really normal, yeah, normal amounts of functional amounts of anxiety. But then I started having panic attacks, thinking like no one's going to help me. What's, how do I do? So, yeah, and then I started an anxiety medicine. So it often has swirled around and right, it's not a very linear story, but I woke up one morning and every single joint in my body hurt, especially the fingers and the toes. I couldn't even open, like a container of milk. And so that's when we called the concierge doctor and she very quickly ran the blood tests for rheumatoid arthritis and sent me to rheumatology. And I was like that's funny. You kept telling me you ran all the tests and everything's normal, so like, but you didn't run the rheumatoid arthritis, so I guess you didn't run all the tests. So I'm still salty about that, if you get.

Nikita Williams: 19:49

No, I mean we I think many of us who have been gas lit like that or have gone through those things that that is a common thing, like that result. Oh, we ran all the tests, and it's like, when you get the diagnosis and it was actually something that could be confirmed by a test you're like so you didn't run that one? Like I totally get it, I am with you on that. I would probably be salty and still upset about that too. It's like, why didn't you run that test? Like just exhaust all the tests you have at this point, because at this point in my life is wherever it is Like, go ahead. But yeah, no, yeah. So what I will do, though, is have a link to your, your YouTube channel about this specific one, so they can hear all of the juicy. I'm sure, like there were even more more things in there, but I want to know no, no, no, it's OK. I want the audience to kind of know a little bit more about, like, how you had a diagnosis and how you came to this place, but the thing I really wanted us to talk about is acceptance and commitment, and I think we don't talk about this enough. I feel like in the world of chronic illness in general, the difference between acceptance versus I never say this word, right, so you guys bear with me, it's like me saying synonym versus, anyway, acceptance versus resignation. There you go, yeah, right, what she said, what Sharer just said. There's such a huge difference in that and I know, for me and my journey and a lot of my clients, the true feeling, authentic acceptance, living with something chronic illness is such a game changer for being able to choose the thrive even though you're dealing with chronic illness.

Cheryl Crow: 21:34

So Yep, 100%. Yeah, oh sorry.

Nikita Williams: 21:38

No, no, no, no. I was just gonna ask you when in your journey did you come to this place of acceptance personally, and how has it affected your life?

Cheryl Crow: 21:48

Yeah, it is the number one. Most helpful thing for me in learning to thrive with the chronic illness has been acceptance and I definitely. I like to say I was dragged, kicking and screaming to acceptance because I am, I am recovering. You know, control freak or as my therapist like to say. I had two therapists and so I'm gonna refer to one as a he and one as a she, because there are two, in case you're like what? The first therapist I went to I thought it was just gonna be for postpartum adjustment kind of challenges. I didn't like to think it was depression, because it didn't feel like depression it felt. It did feel more like postpartum irritability and apparently anxiety and depression can be on as best as irritability I didn't know that and anxiety. So they both said that basically, being a good problem solver and being stubborn and optimistic and saying I'm gonna fix this, I'm gonna get this figured out, those are traits that are really helpful for solvable problems. But your health is not always a solvable problem, right, and that's. I think with autoimmune or chronic illnesses like what you and I are dealing with, it's very tricky. To the $100,000 question is okay, how do you differentiate what parts of my condition are solvable and what you're gonna be perpetual. So the way that Dr Russ Harris which, if people, if I wanna send people one resource, I'm not even gonna send them to my own website because this book, dr Russ Harris, he wrote a book called the Happiness Trap and it is so fabulous, it's like the one thing I'm like if you do nothing else, read this book, I'm gonna look at this. I always forget how to say the second part of it, how to stop struggling and start living. And then it's like a primer to acceptance and commitment therapy. But the way he defines acceptance is taking what's offered. It doesn't mean liking it. It doesn't mean resigning yourself to your fate. It's just saying this is what life is offering me in the moment today. So it really is an act stands for acceptance and commitment therapy and that's again what the Happiness Trap book is about. There's many other books about it too, but it's an evidence-based technique. Just for those listening who might be health professionals who need to say like, is this evidence-based? Or patients who want to know is it evidence-based? It's actually more evidence-based than traditional cognitive behavior therapy for chronic pain specifically, and chronic conditions, because it really teaches you to say it's a mindfulness and behavior-based approach. The first part, that A, is accept your thoughts and feelings and sensations, including pain, exactly how they are in the moment, and you expand and make room for them. And then the C is connect with your values and the T is take effective action. So you say, okay, what can I do to still have a full and vibrant meaningful life with my health condition alongside it, versus making your whole life all about fighting it or trying to take it away?

Nikita Williams: 24:47

Yeah, yeah. No, this is a core, core, core piece of my business coaching. For folks that live with chronic illness. It's like we cannot operate in our business in silos without going through and accepting that this isn't something you are going to fix so that you can then therefore be successful. Like this is a part of your life and that sucks some days that's okay to accept that, and there's some days it's not sucky, but you know it's like okay. When, in your journey specifically, do you have a point in time? I have a very specific time in my journey where I know that I went through this process of accepting in a completely different way and it changed literally the way I saw and everything that I did. But not everyone has that right, Not everyone has that. Some people go through phases of acceptance, different things, but for you, what has that looked like for you in your journey with RA?

Cheryl Crow: 25:49

I think that I'm reminded of a quote by John Green, who's a young adult fiction writer. He's really great. He wrote a book called the Fall on Our Stars and one of the lines in that book is he fell in love. Like you fall asleep slowly, then all at once, and I kind of feel like that was what acceptance for me was slow, and then it was all at once. It was like I fought it. I fought it. I had so many therapy points with my first therapist and then my second one. He is an OCD specialist obsessive compulsive disease and he real or disorder. What it's weird. You wouldn't think like wait, what's the overlap between, like OCD and pain and stuff and chronic pain? But he somehow was able to and I wish I could remember yeah, exactly, I don't think it was like a, it was one moment, but he was somehow able to kind of get me to accept again that fact of some problems are not gonna be solvable Like that. I need to let go, like letting go of control could actually be freeing and versus letting go of control, feeling depressing or sad, it was. That's why I call it the acceptance paradox, because when you have I think when you have a chronic illness, so much of like it's comforting in the short term to think that you can control things. And that's how you see the language. I'm really fascinated by language, so I look all the language of different programs people are selling and that's something I loved about you, because I love that you have a down to earth, like we're gonna achieve things, we're gonna make progress, but we're also gonna accept and validate that like we've got some stuff going on. That's not easy and that's not fixable necessarily. And I think other programs they try to give people hope by saying all you have to do is this just follow my plan. Oh, you just gotta eat vegan or you have to do XYZ. And it's like that which you hold holds you. And that's a quote from Tom Robbins, another author. I really like Fixed Writer. And the more you hold this idea that the only barrier to your life happiness is your health condition and you just need to defeat that and then you're gonna be able to climb the mountain of happiness. That's not how life works. Life is suffering at default. That should be our default position, right? That's where mindfulness, buddhist perspective, where it's like life is suffering, period, we're not gonna avoid it. So can you build your capacity to live alongside suffering, to tolerate it and, again, not to say to give up that you can reduce your suffering and you can reduce the amount of impact suffering is having on your life, but you're not gonna avoid it altogether, Like, yeah. So I guess, long story short, the second therapist. He eventually convinced me, but I still struggle with it. He has to call me out on it sometimes to be like that's your problem solving brain. Like remember, problem solving is really helpful if the problem is solvable, right, and it's not. So I guess I would say I believed in the power of it all at one at a certain point, but I still struggle with remembering it because I think there's that internal optimist in me that wants to be like, but what if I just did this? Could I just feel happy and good all the time? You know?

Nikita Williams: 29:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's such a good point and like that you shared that. It's just one of those things for everyone that's gonna kind of look different, like you're gonna have times when you don't accept it or your problem solving brain, as your therapist is, is gonna click in, because I think that's our default, our default for our nervous system, like our body will, naturally, just because that's how we're programmed, right. We're programmed to fix, avoid, be safe, run away from bad things, right, and so that's our natural programming to a degree. And so learning how to like, do that in a way that's actually not going to hold you back, yeah, and so move forward, is such a. It is a skill Like that's all I have. Like acceptance is a skill, right, it's not a one and done. It's kind of like going to the gym and saying, oh, I got some muscles because I lifted some weights. It's like that's cute. Yeah, that's cute. Yeah, it's gonna take a lifelong kind of experience, but I think that's that in itself is an acceptance piece, is to accept that we're going to be working on acceptance for as long as we're here.

Cheryl Crow: 30:17

Yeah, and I have this metaphor that I learned when doing some trainings in acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT. It's the metaphor of the finger trap toys. I don't know if you're watching the video of this, you can see, but like you can imagine, the finger trap toys, this little like paper kind of wooden thing. You can put one finger on one side, one finger on the other side. You pull apart, then your fingers hurt and it gets stuck and then if you relax into it, they come together. So the present you can imagine, like on, let's say, your left hand in the finger trap toy, is like the present moment. And so you put your and then your right hand is resisting. The present moment is when you pull away from it. You're like I can't handle this, I can't do it, I have to fix it, I have to solve it, and then the resistance is what causes our pain to some degree. And then when you relax into it and you say, okay, I'm allowing this again, I'm not, I'm not changing like my thoughts around whether I like it or not, but I'm not going to make space for the present moment, that's when you relax and then you're out of the trap. So that's kind of. I keep one of these literally on my desk just to remind me, like, and I think, yeah, I think it's like the last thing. This is something I'd grapple with all the time. The last thing especially newly diagnosed people want to do, right, is confront the possibility that that this is something they're maybe going to have to live with the rest of their life. And the thing is it's a weird thing because it's true acceptance in the framework of act is about the present. So does it mean that the future, like there, there might be a cure for remitorathritis or endometriosis, maybe cure tomorrow, and then we'll re-change, change our approach, right? I'm not going to not take the cure. If there's a cure, I'm going to take it Like and then. But I need to accept not just the specific condition but the fact that suffering and pain are inevitable in life, or that's emotional suffering, emotional pain. It's almost like this elephant in the room, Like we like we all want to act as if we can, and I think it's part of like you know, like modern culture and being able to avoid suffering. From a young age, we kind of grow up thinking oh yes, I just, you know, I can just fix everything. It's like, actually, it frees you. That's why it's the paradox. You would think it would be so depressing, and it can be and that's valid. But it also frees you to say what, okay, given that this is going to have inevitable suffering is inevitable. What can I still do to have a beautiful, full life, even with some degree of suffering? Right, it's like oh, let's put some brain space into that idea, versus all the brain space energy just going towards fixing, because it's ultimately not going to fully work. We're not in terms of you might, you might fix your rheumatoid arthritis or your specific condition, but you're never going to fix the fact that life is going to present you.

Nikita Williams: 32:56

Oh, there are challenges, yeah, challenges, yeah. And then you just bring up a point that I say all the time to my clients is like and this is part of the reason why I talk about chronic illness is like, chronic illness is one of the challenges that we deal with. It's not the only thing, right, like you know, we have other life hurdles that happen to all of us, and I think the piece of it is that some of us are not able or we can't see it as being similar or the same because we haven't tapped in our, tapped into our own version of compassion and acceptance for the circumstances that we're in, whether it's chronic illness, whether it is, you know, family issues, whether it's money issues, whether it's, you know, some random accident, all of these things If we don't know how to tap into acceptance as a skill, as we were talking about, or self-compassion, seeing someone else's pain that can't be changed is really difficult. And so I think, in the world as you were talking about, like in general, about fixing things and like not being like suffering is like everyone's going through something, just not everyone's talking about how they're getting through the something.

Cheryl Crow: 34:07

Right, so true, so true.

Nikita Williams: 34:10

We're always talking about the shiny success things that we're doing. I think that happens a lot in business especially. We hear everyone's wins, but we don't hear, like the night before Granny died and the cat died and all these horrible things that happened along with it.

Cheryl Crow: 34:28

Right, yeah, yeah, and I think, culturally I would say like there's a lot of stories about, like you know, when you're younger you learn stories about people maybe who might have, yeah, like someone had cancer or something, and then it's like they either overcome it or they die, and we learn when it's a acute illness. There's not a lot of good stories out there from your childhood you know, for chronic illness, where you know, as a mom you know, I've had to explain to my child like like it's not a consistent thing. Like I had a leg amutation and it's like mommy has doesn't have a leg yesterday. She didn't have a leg yesterday. She's never going to have a leg again. Like that's because something you can wrap your head around to accept. I think accepting a fluctuating condition is really uniquely challenging, because you're like mommy has fatigue which, first of all, that's so ephemeral and hard to even be, like mommy's tired, okay, but I'm tired. I was really tired yesterday. I'm not as tired today. I might be more tired tomorrow, I might not. I might be not tired for two weeks and then really tired for a month. Like how do you, you know, how do we calibrate our expectations and how do we explain to other people, like these fluctuations and the uncertainties that I don't know how, if I'm going to feel better. And that's, I think, what acceptance I just the other little I put a little point to myself to remember to say that I think one of the hardest parts for me to accept was the uncertainty and the sometimes random nature of the flare ups. Like I've literally made little videos on this way. Social media has been so therapeutic, I think, for me and other people. But I'll make a video being like look like sometimes you can do everything right and still get a flare up. And like I'll get all these comments for people being like wow, I'm so glad you said that, because I always blame myself if I did something right, if I thought I did everything right and I still got a flare up. It must have been that I did something wrong. But I'm like, what if it's not? What if it's random? What if, like, some cell in your body, completely out of your control, flared up everything, not your fault, you know. So it kind of I don't know it's been really helpful, although I still it doesn't. Again, I don't like uncertainty. I wish someone could just give me a roadmap for the rest of my life. It feels like that would be comforting to know. You know, this is how you're going to feel, cheryl, on like October 2nd 2026, this way, and you're going to be able to do this like okay. But we don't have that, so we have to be able to accept that degree of uncertainty.

Nikita Williams: 36:47

Yeah, you're so right, you're absolutely right, that piece about the fluctuating condition, especially with chronic and acute things. I often have this conversation with friends who live with chronic illness too. It's just like, yeah, today I can do this, but tomorrow I don't know, we'll see what happens, like I think the acceptance piece of this has been me learning to create that type of reality within my life circumstances of being able to flow in and through that kind of shift, and that's part of the reason why I'm like 100%, like a person who's like if you can have your own business, do because, and then base it around that ability to have that fluctuation, because the uncertainty is going to be there, the uncertainty is certain. That's the only thing for sure. We know it's going to be there. So how have you been able to navigate the uncertainty? Wow, because you're your mom, you have your business. How does that look like for you? What has been some ways? You've kind of slow with that.

Cheryl Crow: 37:55

Yeah, yeah. I think that I am a kind of like my default personality like before I got a chronic illness was like to pack in as much as I could every day, right, I would have like on the weekend I'd be like brunch with this person, coffee with this person, dinner with that person, go dancing, do this. And that's still my inclination. I've had to learn to plan for like 75% of what I want to do, and so they have buffer zones, buffer time, and it's gotten a little easier as I've gotten older, actually, because I don't know why. Honestly, maybe the pandemic made it easier too, but it's, I think I also just like I feel the benefits of having that rest time and that buffer time. So, in terms of planning a week or planning my business activities versus life other, you know, outside life I try to make sure, okay, like if I actually got my son from school at 315, like I'm going to put, I'm going to make my calendar availability stop at like two, so that, just as a specific example, right, so I have an hour and 15 minutes to like literally lay down or do whatever self care I need to do at that time. So, but that does take a level of acceptance and not denial, because I think for a while I was in denial and that was like I'll just do everything and it'll be fine. There's a real thin line between optimism and like what's the word Delusion? Believe me, I'm not. Yeah, it's taken me a long time to be like I'm a human being. Remember I was even because I was running a event called the arthritis life extravaganza with my friend Sarah, who also has RA, and I remember telling her I'm so tired today, like I don't know why, and she was Cheryl, you have rheumatoid arthritis. Like don't, you, don't forget. I'm like, oh, yeah, we both have rheumatoid arthritis. I have a company of all about arthritis, we're talking about arthritis, but I still kind of forgot. Like that's the reason maybe that I'm tired. Like it's weird, it's human again to just have these moments. But yeah, I think planning ahead for rest breaks is and planning like again my inclination of someone's like I have this opportunity for you, like business wise. Like, unless it really is a time like oh, they want to do something before a certain date, I'll give them a date that I can meet in like a month later, as opposed to that impulse control part of me that's like I want to do everything right now. I want to say yes to everything, so that's honestly work in progress, like for me, still delegating, I think, is also really important that I'm not doing very well right now on, but I think that that's probably a good idea.

Nikita Williams: 40:22

Yeah, delegating is. It's a beautiful thing, it's one of my friendly things that I like to remind everybody about, Like it's I don't know. So this is like kind of going off topic, but still topic of delegating because you brought it up is because we can't outsource like our energy and the concepts of like planning. Like we are the ones who kind of know, like you need that hour and 15 minutes before you go pick up your son, Like we kind of know that kind of we've created that. But I find that when we start thinking about delegating and outsourcing, people get stuck and be like well, what do I have them do? Or what is it that I need to do? Or even the concept of it's going to take me so much more time and effort to explain it to them. Like that's another one that's my control type A client. So I'm like, yeah, but you're still not doing it right now. So it can't be that bad. It can't be that bad if you have them do it, but what, for you, is that piece of like that stops you? Or like is like the hurdle when it comes to outsourcing?

Cheryl Crow: 41:31

You literally just word for word, said it. That's a type A client yeah, like that, I'm like it's as fast for me to do it, but no, and so, and though it's truly true, or it's having the, I think honestly, the executive functioning skills which have taken a hit in recent years for me, like in terms I had a car accident in 2016 where I had a concussion and ever since then I feel like my executive functioning, which is like the CEO of your own brain. Right, that helps. It's the conceptualized ADHD, actually as an executive functioning disorder and not necessarily just an attention, because maintaining attention is only one part of executive functioning. It's also about organizing, prioritizing, planning and response. Inhibition which is my problem of saying yes to everything. You'd inhibit that and be able to say no. So I think it's a matter of A accepting that I can't do it all. Well, I wanna do it all, but I think it's not really feasible or sustainable to do it all. Also, I do have to say and just being 100% honest that I kind of like have a point of pride that I'm like I do it all myself, like I'm amazing. You know what I mean. And it's like no, it's not, like I am doing a lot myself. I have started delegating. I have Lauren, who is amazing. She's an OT student who helps me like five hours a week with my support group programs and stuff, but it's still like the volume I'm delegating is low compared to the volume I'm still doing. So I need to get over myself and be like it's not worth it to me to say like I do it all myself, aren't I amazing? No, it's not amazing because it comes at a cost. I'm the one at like 8 pm, my son's like let's get ready for bed and I'm like hold on one more email, like that's not good. You know what I mean, so I can logically look at it, but then, when it comes to like taking that knowledge and then applying it to actually making a change, that's where things seem to slow down. But I'm like maybe I'll just make a fun video or maybe I'll you know the fun thing come first like yeah, no, I get it, that's yeah. Yeah, I think to me. I need you, I need to book a call with you after this, after this, I'll do that.

Nikita Williams: 43:40

I think it's a hard thing. I was the same way until I realized that, literally, the I was like making me worse, like the thing that I actually was already like. So coaching is my superpower, right, like my love and attention to people is my superpower. But because I was like trying to do all of these different kinds of things, oh wow, during a flare up, or oh wow, I'm like can't get out of bed today, like all of these random things, while I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm better, I couldn't even do the thing that I was really good at Well. And so I realized I'm like I'm not creating any kind of safety in my business or even in the thing that I enjoy, by trying to prove to myself that I can do it by myself, because I ain't doing it, like it's not happening right. And so that's one of the reasons why I like talking about it, often probably on the show, because I'm totally that person, even with a VA, like my VA has to be like what can I take from you? And I'm always like I intentionally have to just be like just give it to her, even though you know you can do it. Like literally I have to just disconnect myself from it. And then when I do it, I'm like, oh my gosh, why didn't I do that like so long ago?

Cheryl Crow: 44:52

Like, why did I do that? No, that's so true, that's. I did that with my own podcast. I did delegate out the audio and video editing and I was like I thought it was gonna be so hard for me, because I like having that control of editing and I actually genuinely enjoy the editing process. It's weird, but it was so. It's just like you said. Once I started doing it, I was like, oh, this is so great to have it off my plate. It's almost easier to just get it completely off your plate than to like halfway be still doing it. So you're sure, right now, I also think for me it's also like if I wanna build something sustainable, it's not right now the whole castle crumbles. If I get really sick, like with my support groups since I run for I'm having four groups a week right now and it's actually kind of remarkable that I haven't had to. I haven't ever had to. I've rescheduled a couple of them but I haven't had to like massively do that yet. But like it's on my list for like so the future to train other people to facilitate the groups, because it is like a standardized process that I do, and so, yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, I think it's part of being like a multi-passionate entrepreneur person is like being so interested in so many things and I wanna do a podcast and I wanna do social media influencing and I also run support groups and educational programs and I also speak at conferences and stuff and it's like whoa, you're everywhere. Lady, you know like there's inevitably gonna be a ceiling at just my own effectiveness unless I get more people involved. So yeah, thank you. There's like live coaching right now.

Nikita Williams: 46:28

Yeah, no, I am just with you on that. I think one of the things I believe like I'm sure you, especially in occupational therapy I think there's this something that I learned just in my own journey is like creating safety, because when we have uncertainty, a lot of times the uncertainty creates this feeling of like always being in that fear of flight, brain space, and I have found, like my ability to access and create safety for myself within whatever containers, that is, whether relationships at home, in my business, that is what gives me more freedom and like breath and space for my random, certain unpredictable uncertainty, if that makes any sense. Like this sounds so like a little bit of place but totally makes sense to my brain. So for me. I'm always like one of the things I just like leaning into is like how can I create safety? And when I say that, when I'm like holding against, like asking for help, or instead of thinking of it as help, I think you think of it as safety. How am I creating safety for myself by outsourcing this or delegating this? And that thought, just that shift, has been amazing to me, because when I think about it from safety I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, this totally makes sense, because what if I am in the hospital? What if I am this, or what if all these things that I'm constantly debating? I don't have to worry about that, because now I've created kind of like the safety system, and I think that's huge for chronic illness warriors, especially in our businesses, because that's a constant mindset thing that's like in the back of our head before we go to bed, thinking like, oh my gosh, what if I wake up tomorrow? I literally cannot do this thing.

Cheryl Crow: 48:11

Yeah, yeah, it almost reminded me when you're talking about this, the value of therapy being beyond that one hour a week. Like some people say, how much can that one hour a week really help you? But it's knowing that throughout the week you have that one hour to look forward to with your therapist. So same with. I think it gives you this sense of ease, and I think this in the same way. I'm imagining obviously not through experience because I haven't done this yet but delegating on a more massive scale than I have would be like as you're falling asleep, you're like okay, well, I know that, like, my VA is gonna take care of those things, versus now being like oh, don't forget this, don't forget that, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. Yeah, so I mean you're definitely making the case. It's totally a matter of like. It's like that exercise, diet and exercise is like you know, it's right, it's just. When are you gonna take the step to do it? That is the mystery.

Nikita Williams: 49:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Think about it and I'm just kidding, think about it. Think about it. Think about how can I create some more safety in your life.

Cheryl Crow: 49:10

Commit to it. I have to. That's the acceptance and commitment therapy it's committing to yeah.

Nikita Williams: 49:16

Commit to creating some more safety in your business with your delegation. That would be awesome. I love it. Well, I love this. I want to know about how is it running your business with RA? And you're like I feel like this is where I love talking with you. When we talked is thinking both of our businesses are about how we live. Like you know. Like it's not like separate, like oh, I'm going to go home and like not worry about this thing that I live with. Like this is what we live with. Do for work. How does that work for you? I always have people ask me that question. You're like, how are you not like bored with it? I'm like I don't know life. How is that possible? But for you, how is it all working Like for you?

Cheryl Crow: 50:01

Yeah, and so my my condition has fluctuated in just in the four years since I started arthritis life as a business, you know it's got. There's been ups and downs, there's been periods where my joint pain has been worse period and fatigue has fluctuated, but right now I'm at a good place with it where my medications seem to be working and I'm doing, you know, the lifestyle things that I enjoy that also have a positive impact on my symptoms, like exercise in particular. For me, exercise and sleep are like and actually I sleep in stress management, I guess all three of those go together for me and nutrition is in the mix but it doesn't have as big of an effect on specifically my rheumatoid arthritis, just in my body. So you know, for example, I'm going actually, even though I was saying I try to keep you know, like as an example of keeping time to myself, like two to three on my schedule, but on Mondays I go to a personal trainer at two o'clock and so I'm working on exercise and weight training specifically because I was it made that my goal earlier this year but I didn't, I wasn't actually doing it on my own. So I don't know if that's what you mean by you know balancing it, but for me it's very much like you know I've. The reason I started arthritis life and I specifically help other people with the same condition I have is that there was this Japanese concept of ECA guy or ECA. He was like the four overlapping circles right. And so for me, as an occupational therapist, who was equally passionate about helping children with developmental disabilities as I am helping adults with inflammatory arthritis, the reason specifically that I pivoted to this is because it's what do you love? What is the world need? What are you good at? And then, what can you get paid for? But what, what does the world need? There are in my city of Seattle, there are probably 200 occupational therapists that focus on pediatrics. There's no one else focusing on autoimmune, inflammatory arthritis or even just like, generally speaking, chronic illness. There's no one that I know of right. So it's like that was the exciting part for me is being able to serve a niche that is so massively underserved, and so people are like well, you are like always promoting other people that to me someone would say they look like they're your competitors, like why are you promoting, like so and so else, who's an occupational therapist? Who's cause? I'm like, I'm excited that there's more than one of us who care about this, you know, and yeah right, so you're like, and it's abundance mindset too, but so for me it's it's very exciting. I do have to have, I will say, the boundaries I have to have in my head or around. Like there are times if I'm running a support group and there's something that comes up that's triggering emotionally for me, not so triggering that like I have to do anything in the moment about it, but something where I have to just I have to give myself a little time and space afterwards to like, you know, emotionally, like process what happened. And it can be hard, you know, with my diagnosis story I mentioned earlier, with the medical gas lighting. When that happens to anyone in my groups, like it's so upset for them. You know, I feel that empathy. It might maybe be easier to facilitate a support group for people who have like a totally different condition that you have. But for me the pros outweigh the cons for sure.

Nikita Williams: 53:07

Yeah, and I love I love that you shared that, because I have some clients that are finding their alignment in that space. Right Of finding like this affects so many pieces of my life. But also I wish I had this in my life, like I wish I had a net, like like you, wish you had a, cheryl, when you were going through all of this. Like you know what I mean, and that was the kind of the same journey for me was like I wish I had a and I had them, but they were like all spread out, they were it wasn't like in a one spot. Like right, you get all of the support and so I love that you're doing that, especially for the RA community, because it's such a powerful place to be seen and heard in the experience by someone who's not just talking about it but has some aspects of understanding what it is like to be living at right, and it's such a powerful thing. So what's exciting and coming up for you with your business and how can we support you?

Cheryl Crow: 54:06

Oh my gosh, that's so nice to see. So yeah, I've worked on. I developed a comprehensive self management program which is really educational program called room to thrive, spelled R-H-E-U-M like room. Like it actually stands for rheumatic disease as well as rheumatoid arthritis, but it's really tailored for people to give them, like with rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis and spondyloarthritis, to give them a kind of a step by step guide on how to manage the day to day of their condition and thrive. That's why it's room to thrive. The thrive is like a acronym so it stands for like tools for pain of a dig and habits and all that stuff. But anyway, that's a self paced course. People can go through on their own time or they can do the course plus a 12 week support group. That's why I was kept mentioning support group, with an additional like alumni group after that. If you want to keep meeting and it's been really wonderful seeing the transformations that occur in people who really represent there's a diverse group. There's people like me who have had it for 20 years but never gotten any support. It doesn't really matter how long you've had it. You got no support or no education. Then you're the same place as somebody who was just diagnosed. It's open to people through the country. So my website is like myarthritislifenet. That will redirect you to my website. The actual URL is kind of long. But yeah, and I also do. I also yearly do the arthritis life hack extravaganza, like a free educational event. That's happening in February it's probably going to be February 3rd and that is going to be an opportunity to just kind of come together within a webinar style event where you learn, you know, basically tips, tricks. I'm going to this year I'm going to do it as like a day in the life, so walking you through again that day in the life I mentioned earlier where all the areas we can implement, some life hacks, not just the physical life hacks, like using, you know, compression gloves or like I use like a tripod for my phone instead of like holding my phone, for example, but also the emotional coping skill life. It's a little stretch to call them life hacks, but you know, mental shifts. They're kind of like a life hack right, like a reframe or doing a self compassion practice to improve your quality of life. So that's, and I'm also on all the social medias.

Nikita Williams: 56:27

I like to make ticktocks and real ticktocks and videos are awesome If you're not following her for any other reason, but to her, be awesome and like she's a huge Taylor Swift fan and I love watching your videos. I'm just like you're having like the most fun.

Cheryl Crow: 56:46

No, it's so fun. Thank you. Yeah, edutainment is such a fascinating concept to me where it's like educational entertainment. Yes, you know. And so, yeah, I love connecting to people on social media. Perfect, feel free to like and subscribe.

Nikita Williams: 57:01

No, Well, I'm going to put off course all of the ways for them to connect with you on social media online If you want to check out her community and her program. All of that will be in the show notes and I thank you so very much for hopping on and sharing a little bit about acceptance and your journey with RA. This has been awesome.

Cheryl Crow: 57:22

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you and all you'll let you do to help the chronic illness communities, so it's a pleasure to be on. Thank you.

Nikita Williams: 57:32

That's a wrap, y'all. Thanks for tuning in to Crafted to Thrive, the podcast that helps entrepreneurs with chronic illness to thrive and build a holistic business and life. Check out our website at CraftedToThrivecom for this episode show notes and all the gifts and goodies. Connect with me on Instagram at thrive with Nikita for more tips and behind the scenes and more. Tag me to share what you loved about this episode and I'll feature you on an upcoming episode. So until next time, remember, yes, you are crafted to thrive.